Ógra Shinn Féin
Irish politics has for a long time been associated in some way with religion; or most likely with religious division. How much influence religion has or had, will of course always be debatable. However, one thing can be said, no revolutionary movement can ignore the influence of religion. The attitude of revolutionary movements to these influences is something that is often the topic of huge debate amongst activists. And this latest issue, in my opinion, is an example of this.
I am referring to a debate around the saying of the Rosary at Easter Commemorations and other Republican Commemorations. The saying of the Rosary has been tradition at Republican commemorations in many parts of Ireland for many years, but in my view this practice is wrong. I must also say from the outset that I consider myself a Christian, whilst I do not practice in any church.
For centuries the British who have attempted to conquer our country, have attempted to foster religious division. They have tried to divide the people of this island by whatever means they can, so as to obtain a loyal section of the local population which they thought they could easily control. This is no more evident in the north were even through the latest period of our history they have continued to foster that division. This is in no small part a contribution to the many uneducated opinions out there, that Republicanism is a Catholic ideology or that the Republican struggle is a struggle for Catholics only. An uneducated view that I am sure we have all had put to us in the past.
But what this debate does is bring to light a number of key points.
It seems only natural to begin where it all really began. Most Republicans attribute the birth of Irish Republicanism to Wolfe Tone and the United Irishmen. A movement looked back on proudly by Republicans, it was led by people from all backgrounds in society.
Today we are still proud to believe in the ideal of “Catholic, Protestant and Dissenter.” But even in this period the Catholic Church was siding with the established order of the day. Although brave leaders like Father Murphy, eventually denied the orders of the Church and sided with their Presbyterian neighbours.
Similar stories can be told in the Church’s support of the Act of Union, when Orange Lodges throughout Ireland were protesting against it; the denouncing of Emmett, of the Young Irelanders and of the Fenians.
With Bishop Moriarty of Kerry infamously saying of the Fenians, “Hell is not hot enough nor eternity long enough to punish such miscreants.”
Further examples can be found in the condemnation of the Land League, as Irish people fought back against the foreign landlords extorting people living on their own land. Even Home Rule was denounced, and many would argue this was the most moderate of Irish movements.
All of this contributes to the point that there is no special link between Catholicism and Republicanism, and that quite often through history the politics of the Catholic Church have been wrong and in the interests of the Status quo. No less evidence of this is the policy of the Catholic Church to insist the Irish national flag is removed from coffins before it enters a chapel.
A policy of great offence to many Irish Republicans and something that has affected many of the very people we gather to remember at commemorations.
Over the years the Church has ousted brave priests who have spoke out in favour of revolution in Ireland, and so I feel it also relevant to make a distinction between Church and faith.
All of this contributes to the point that there is no special link between Catholicism and Republicanism, and that quite often through history the politics of the Catholic Church have been wrong and in the interests of the Status quo. No less evidence of this is the policy of the Catholic Church to insist the Irish national flag is removed from coffins before it enters a chapel.
A policy of great offence to many Irish Republicans and something that has affected many of the very people we gather to remember at commemorations.
Over the years the Church has ousted brave priests who have spoke out in favour of revolution in Ireland, and so I feel it also relevant to make a distinction between Church and faith.
However, I still feel that saying the Rosary, inextricably linked solely to Catholicism is giving an unjust special significance to only one religion.
However, I do recognise that particularly in recent times, a lot of commemorations such as Easter Commemorations are held at Republican plots in Catholic Cemeteries. I also accept that a lot of our Patriot Dead are in fact Catholic and this must be respected. But this does not mean that the Republican movement is Catholic and it does not mean that Republican commemorations are Catholic commemorations.
However, I do recognise that particularly in recent times, a lot of commemorations such as Easter Commemorations are held at Republican plots in Catholic Cemeteries. I also accept that a lot of our Patriot Dead are in fact Catholic and this must be respected. But this does not mean that the Republican movement is Catholic and it does not mean that Republican commemorations are Catholic commemorations.
On Easter Sunday we gather to remember all Republican activists have died for our struggle. Republicans of all walks of life, over various periods in struggle. It is not a fair reflection of Republicanism to say the Rosary.
I feel it also important to indicate that removing such a tradition as the Rosary, is not an act against faith. It is simply not identifying our politics or struggle with any particular religion.
Republicanism is not linked to a religion, nor is it about atheism. It is about an Ireland of Religious freedom, where all faiths are respected and no one in particular has a special position in society.
What makes this important is somewhat of a strange irony. As I have said the Church always sides with the establish order; survival is imperative. But what then happens in the case of successful revolution?
The record of the Church indicates that they change their position. As James Connolly put it, “They don’t put their eggs in one basket.”
So the importance of not allowing a special relationship to develop is apparent. Do we want a 32 County Free State where one Church is allowed a special standing in our country, and so by default other faiths are discriminated against? Or do we want an Ireland of Religious liberty, where we “cherish all the children of the nation equally”?
Religion has always been used to divide us in the past. By separating are politics from our faith, whatever that may be, we can build a new Ireland. I believe we will.
An Phoblacht Abú!
I feel it also important to indicate that removing such a tradition as the Rosary, is not an act against faith. It is simply not identifying our politics or struggle with any particular religion.
Republicanism is not linked to a religion, nor is it about atheism. It is about an Ireland of Religious freedom, where all faiths are respected and no one in particular has a special position in society.
What makes this important is somewhat of a strange irony. As I have said the Church always sides with the establish order; survival is imperative. But what then happens in the case of successful revolution?
The record of the Church indicates that they change their position. As James Connolly put it, “They don’t put their eggs in one basket.”
So the importance of not allowing a special relationship to develop is apparent. Do we want a 32 County Free State where one Church is allowed a special standing in our country, and so by default other faiths are discriminated against? Or do we want an Ireland of Religious liberty, where we “cherish all the children of the nation equally”?
Religion has always been used to divide us in the past. By separating are politics from our faith, whatever that may be, we can build a new Ireland. I believe we will.
An Phoblacht Abú!
28 comments:
I am in favour of the rosary being said at commemorations which honour catholic republicans. Firstly when we gather at a commemoration, we are there to pay our respects and to honour a particular republican.
It is therefore only fitting that we can also pay tribute to them by reciting some prayers - It is a religious acknowledgment.
Ultimately, the vast majority of our volunteers have been interred in catholic graveyards - Will people in the future be requesting for their bodies to be exhumed and buried in non religious grounds because it is offensive to expect a non catholic to enter catholic grounds to attend a commemoration?
Liam
Armagh
well say johnny our struggle is for a 32 county demoratic scoialist irish republic and not for any church or religous.
neily belfast
2 very good arguments, and very well articulated view points.
Both articles where very respectful of the differing opionions and of the sensitive nature of such a discussion.
I am some where in between in the debate, I believe that at local graveside commemorations, on the request from families of our patriot dead, we should have no problem in reciting the rosary, however at the main county events each easter, wheather in Cullyhanna, Carrickmore, Milltown or in Dublin, that we do not, as they are open public events, where we want to encourage maximum attendance from all faiths and non.
I believe at these events, there should be a section where we call for a moment of private prayer and reflection for our patriot dead.
But again, I would say that both articles are excellent and ultimately thought provoking.
Let the debate continue. Maith thú Ógra.
Declan
The rosary is not even a simply christian prayer it is a purely catholic prayer. Republicanism is a secular ideology prayers are devisive. I felt as an agnostic completely sidelined and even slightly offended by the rosary at the two commemorations I have experienced them at. Republicanism is not for catholics it is for republicans!
Good article Johnny. Dissapointed that there is even a need felt to debate this.
as a plus: leave religious ceremonies to the families of volunteers. They fought for a republic and should be remembered as republicans by our movement.
So even prayer is now divisive?
''Republicanism is not for Catholics its for Republicans? Are you now stating Oisin that you can't be Catholic and Republican? Oisin lets be honest, if a simple Christian prayer was recited at the Graves, you would be hostile, if a Rabbi said the Shema, you would have a problem. As far as you are concerned people have no right to pray at Republicans graves if a Republican comeration is taking place. So much for equality.
k.
It's quite simple really. Any commemoration held by the Republican Movement should remain secular. Everyone accepts that the Movement is secular, so to argue for the rosary is to impose it on those Republicans who wish to show their respect for dead republicans shouldn't feel excluded. On the other hand, if the family are organising the commemoration and it is their wish to have a religious aspect to the ceremony,then that is a personal call for the family.
Shall we start reciting the rosary at the graveside of the founding father of Irish Republicanism (Wolfe Tone)? What do you think he would make of that considering he was not a catholic?
I feel there is no need debate with this one relgion should be seprate from republicanism unless requested by family members at Commemorations that rosary shud be said.
Not every republican is a Catholic its the 21st centry, Republicanism is and should be open to all. Ireland is changing there is alot more different cultures now and to make the rosary manatory at every Commemoration might put people of.
I'm Catholic myself but not relgious I would have no prob at all saying rosary but feel strongly that relgion shud be seprate from republicanism!
p.s apoglies for my terrible spellings
Perhaps people should read my article again, a lot of the questions being raised I feel have already been answered. This debate is whether or not commemorations that already recite the rosary should be allowed to continue to do so. It is not about expanding the process. In relation to Wolfe Tone, for obvious reasons the rosary is not said, he was a Presbyterain. In relation to the new-Irish I stated that I would welcome representatives from the new communities to offer their prayers as well, by doing so you are recognising that every one is not Catholic and you are also helping to integrate people into Irish society. This debate centers on whether prayer of any discription should be said at a Republican grave.
Lastly, on a personal note we should be accommodating the wishes of families into official commemorations, not telling them to do their own thing if they want to prayer. Bit of common sense lads!
Michael S. Down
Comrades is this debate really neccessary? the current system works fine. If we were to change that now we would be seen as becoming more unsecular, would we not?
the current system.?
there are still commemorations i attend using the rosary including easter. not everywhere operates that system
We can't claim to be a serious secular movement and in favour of separation of church and state if we don't conduct ourselves in such a manner. I would be against future readings of the Rosary at Republican commemorations.
are in last line should be our
i have read both articles and would like to say well done to Michael and Johnny as they are both excellent pieces of work, i think they both protrayed their point of view excellently and i can see where both of them are coming from.
the main thing that disappoints me are the responses, as Michael has said, it seems people wont be happy until there is a complete ban on saying the rosary at commerations, i want to know why you want this, is it because this offends you, well what if i were to tell you that not saying the rosary at a commeration would be an offence to me, surely we are for equality, do i not have an equal right to honour our Patriotic dead in a fashion i feels honors them, most of the volunteers from my area were religious as are their families and to state that the rosary should only be said if it requested by the family is outrageous. May i ask these people who wish for the rosary to be removed from commerations just in what way do they honour their deceased family members and friends?
I believe if they are buried in a Catholic graveyard then that was obviously the wish of them and their families so why remove the Catholic element out of their commeration??
I often hear my mother telling me about her granfather who served in the Old IRA, he always said Religion first, country second, are you to tell me that at the Easter commeration when they are laying a wreath on his grave that the Rosary should not be said. So this Easter does my family have to request that the rosary is said, next your going to tell me that we have to fill out a form and theres a deadline, that may sound absurd to you but not as absurd as removing the rosary at commerations sounds to me
M Doherty
W Tyrone
Mary
The Volunteers that are being commemorated are being commemorated for their Republican activity. Their religious beliefs are personal, and those who wish to celebrate or remember that aspect can do so in their own way -but not in the name of the Movement. The Repubican Movement is secular, no IRA volunteer died for their religion, but for Ireland - catholic, protestant and dissenter. Seperation of church and state is a fundamental of Republicanism - not an optional extra. If we can't even implement it in our own movemnet what chance do we have in government.
At last a bit of debate on this blog for a change!
This debate is about weather or not to remove the rosary from commemorations where it is currently said am i right?
Re M Doherty;
Think your grandda must have been in the Catholic Reaction Force, cos that outlook ain't republican. Plus, there is no Old IRA, New IRA or anything else. There is just the IRA.
Well what is it then M Doherty, religion or country first?
My family have lost Volunteers, who the hell do people think they are dictating to us that we cannot be part of an official Republican commemoration simply because we want to pray for them. We are entitled to have that! And when in order to be Republican you must be secular, where does that say in the party constitution, the programme of the first Dáil or the proclamation, sheer nonsence. I would like to see some of the people who have left comments here going up to my family and telling them that they can't pray for their loved ones. I have never been so annoyed before. If Sinn Féin was to carry this out, they better avoid my door.
Sarah
I simply stated that religion first was my great granfathers view, obviously religion meant a great deal to him and every year on Easter Sunday when we gather at the graveyard to commerate everything he has done and stood for I think its only fitting that he is remembered in a way thats fitting to him, in a way that he would have commerated other volunteers that died before him, removing the rosary from commerations makes you happy, but it doesnt me.
We need some middle ground, from all the comments that I have read the only person calling for a compromise is Michael, to all the people so against the rosary being said at commerations, you need to help provide an alternative that pleases everyone, at the moment you are only looking to please yourselves and are forgetting the rest of us.
And Johnny in relation to your point that we need to seperate politics from religion, i think noone does that more than Ogra but personally i do not attend commerations because of politics, i attend as a republican, politics is only part of being a republican. I am a republican and a Catholic as were most of our volunteers, I think thats its only right to continue to say the rosary at the gravesides of these men and women. I know you will never agree with me the same as i can never agree to remove the rosary, so lets do something about it, start thinking of an alternative, there has to be some middle ground
M Doherty
Well said Mary, God first, country second!
Th Republican Movement has their own position on this which differs slightly from area to area. I don't know of any volunteers who joined the Army to fight for their religion, if they did then they were in the wrong organisation! Since the Catholic religion was suppressed as a result of the imperialist policies of the occupying brit government, anyone (regardless of any extreme religious opinion) who puts religion in front of politics in that context, has the wrong srategy completely. This cannot be diputed! Why? Because the Army's strategy was to first and foremost, remove the oppressor in order to implement political change in Ireland, which included adolishing dicrimination against all religions. All our fallen volunteers joined th Army to fight for this ideal and died defending this strategy. To put religion before political struggle in this movement is wrong!
Could 'Sarah' please explain who is dictating to her that her family has no right to pray at commemorations? Certainly no-one on this blog from my understanding. I would hope!
Everyone has the right to pray for their loved ones at commemorations, the movement doesnt provide for it at large ones for all volunteers such as Easter, because it would send out the wrong message that our movement comprises of a single religion. This does not take away people's right to pray.
Almost every commemoration has a minutes silence to "rmember our dead". People have the option to remember their loved ones in any way they choose during this period. Personly I use this to reflect on the sacrafices of our fallen comrades and to rededicate myself to the cause for which they died, others may say a silent prayer, everyone is different. To conclude, no-one is discriminated against at commemorations if people feel they are, then there are appropriate channels in their local area to raise their issues!
Seán G.
Strabane
We are geeting caught up in our own beliefs here!
Isn't the most important people the ones we are remembering and if they are burried in a graveside there was a roasry said at their burial so why not at their commeration?
I would only oppose to the rosary being said when people had refused to be burried in a graveyard as they obviously were against the catholic religion.. for every1 else...they obviously had some belief.
I believe a moment of silent prayer or reflection is best.
I don't believe aren't entitled to pray at commemorations.
Johnny
Compromise: If the family request a rosary, there should be an announcement at the end of the official Republican commemoration that the family will be holding a rosary and that anyone who wishes to join them is welcome. Same for any other religious denominations if that is what is wanted. I think Sean G's suggestion is also a good one of people availing of the minutes silence.
Which is it Mary, religion or country?
i hardly think its fair for anonymous to keep asking M Doherty which it is fisrt, religion or country....i think she has already answered that question!
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