Pádraig Pearse Ógra Shinn Féin Cumann
South Down
So I see it has started, after 1,547 years oftradition and continuity in Ireland. Christmas and in particular the story of the Nativity is under attack. It was with genuine sadness that I listened to the Joe Duffy show on RTE Radio 1 (Monday 3rd December) and learnt that a play-school has decided to ‘drop’ the annual nativity play because of a sole complaint.
What is happening to our country? Its sad to see that the Irish political correctness brigade are following their counterparts in Britain in trying to destroy the message of Christmas. What next ‘’sorry sir, we don’t call it Christmas in Ireland anymore, its Winterville.’’
For some reason an element in Irish society, thoughbe it tiny, are attempting to eradicate any public declaration of faith. Apparently, believing in God is now offensive, it has become taboo in many respects. What is the problem? What do people find so hostile about a class of young children dressing up, andre-enacting a story about the Christian faith?
I honestly don’t know, I have debated with many people who are hostile to faith and when you challenge them, they offer nothing instead, but open disdain and in many cases hatred, so who is the real bigot?
Perhaps it my upbringing, but from the earliest age,I, was taught above all, to respect other people, their values and beliefs, irrespective if I agreed with them are not. Why? because its the right thing to do, and its how I would like to be treated. Mutual respect and equality.
As the debate on the radio continued, virtually all callers expressed their disgust and anger at the decision. It was then that a Jewish woman, who was also angered by the decision, came onto the radio. As she debated with a man who supported the cancelling ofthe Nativity play she cited, that not only was this an infringement of religious freedom but political correctness gone mad.
Indeed, she destroyed any argument that he put up. This Jewish woman like me could not understand how expressing a religious belief in a free and democratic society could be so offensive. We have no problem with other religious expressions of faith so why is a nativity play so wrong?
The answer, is that its not wrong, nor offensive, infact accusations of the such are more a demonstration of the accusers guilt of prejudiced opinion. People who attempt to demonise religion claim that they do so to ‘protect’ people and ensure that our society is equal. Instead all they are doing is denying the 96% of the people who live on our island a chance to demonstrate their right of religious expression. Christmas does not threaten people.
Let common sense, equality and respect prevail. Stop attacking Christmas, If you don’t believe or not have no affiliation with the Christmas message, that is perfectly fine, but allow those of us who do believe,the opportunity to celebrate the true meaning of Christmas, the way countless Irish generations have done before us.
Nollaig Shona Duit!
17 comments:
Michael I went to a catholic school, I had not choice as there was no non-denominational school in the area.
Every year my class up until around 7 would do a nativity play at Christmas. As an athiest or at least at that time a child who did not believe in god I was forced essential ly to either take part in propagating what I saw as a myth or be excluded. Just because I didnt want to take part in a play about something I didnt believe in or even believe to be a negative, especially after the amount of harassment I recieved from class mates and even teachers whenever the subject of my religion arose.
This continued right up until I left secondary school where a few classes started with an our father and every holiday was marked with a prayer service of a very demominational sort.When I brought this matter up I was treated as a bigot who wanted to deny people right to religion.
This was far from inclusive. I am not insulted by peoples expression of religion or faith but when it has the possibility to goad children through peer pressure and fear of being left out into propagating something which they dont understand or even disagree with then I think that is wrong. its not about PC or anything else its about being inclusive in what shoudl be a officially secular environment (at least if its a state funded school anyway)
Oisín Ó Dubláin,
Ógra Átha Cliath
Firstly Oisín, I welcome your contribution, and secondly you may be surprised to know but I agree with pretty much everything you said. Know one who does not believe in God or in a faith should be forced to partake in such activities.
The concept of faith is choice. I believe that you have the right not to take part in religious events just as I have the right to celebrate my faith openly, in public and yes in education.
In a free and democratic society people are entitled to send their children to a faith based education, just the same as those who want an education without religion. In fact it is my understanding that the overwhelmingly number of buildings used by Educate Together belong to the Catholic Church. Which I think is a very friendly and positive thing.
However my friend, you failed to answer my original questions, do you agree with me that people should have the right to celebrate their faith openly without it being condemned and described as offensive? Do you agree that in the spirit of equality and mutual respect, that children who wish to partake in such events like a nativity play should be allowed to? If people do not want to take part, then under no circumstances should they be forced to and I think it was an absolute disgrace if you were forced to take part in such events.
I completely emphasise with you on that point, indeed as you know, I understand quiet well what it is like to be ridiculed and laughed at simply because I believe in God. So in that respect, I hope you agree me that this debate is far to important to be simply viewed as religion V atheism. This is a debate about freedom of expression and freedom of choice. I am sure that we all can co-operate and work so that all with in society can be satisfied.
So to conclude I agree with you that no child, should be forced to partake in religious ceremonies that they do not want to. But a second child who does want to take part in a nativity play has the right too. It is choice!
To quote my pervious statement:
''Let common sense, equality and respect prevail. Stop attacking Christmas, If you don’t believe or not have no affiliation with the Christmas message, that is perfectly fine, but allow those of us who do believe, the opportunity to celebrate the true meaning of Christmas, the way countless Irish generations have done before us.''
I look forward to your response.
Michael Gray - Sloan
Pádraig Pearse Ógra Shinn Féin Cumann
South Down
Great article Michael. Poor Oisin hadn't a choice of a non denominational school - reality check Oisin, some people in this world don't get the chance to get an education and here we have people complaining about the plight of attending a Catholic School. Silver spoon me thinks!!
Enough of that - back to the point there is nothing remotedly offensive about the nativity and here if you don't believe in it - its still a good story:)
Peter
Quality Cartoon - i think that alone demonstrates the absurdity of this case.
Sinead
Brilliant article Michael-well constructed and written. I think you have hit the nail on the head-PC GONE MAD
Peter as a republican I believe I, as well as everybody else, have the right to not have Catholicism shoved down my throat at such an early age when the person who is doing it is being paid by the state. Secularism...its not that difficult and nothing to do with silver spoons.
I think I covered that Michael. I completely stand by everybodies right to express their religion and faith but I dont think it should be done in an official way by people who are employed by the state. If a group of students want to put on a nativity play fair play but I dont think it should be something initiated by the school.
If you want exclusive faith education you should have to pay for it the maintenance of a religion is not an obligation of the state.
I have to say Oisín, I was quite surprised by your last comment relating to money and education, I thought as Irish Socialist Republicans we believed in free education.
Are you suggesting that an Irish child, an Irish citizen, should be forced to pay for their education simply because they attend a school with a religious ethos? what if that child came from an economically deprived background, that couldn't afford to attend a 'private' school. He/she would be forced to go some where else, or may that is the plan?
All Irish children, irrespective of colour, creed, sex or sexuality are entitled to the same standard of education, the best that we can provide and above all free.
That is what real socialism is about. Are you seriously suggesting punishing children simply because they attend a faith based school?
What you have demonstrated is the double standards that I have come to expect of the proponents of secularism. Its our way or none, is usually how it goes.
You speak that you do not want anything shoved down your throat, I completely agree, but why my friend do you want to force secularisation down mine or anybody else's throat for that matter.
What I cannot understand is why we can not have plurality and choice, why do secularists and atheists insist that there is only way, their way of operating in society.
You say that you completely ''stand by everybody's right to express their religion and faith but I don't think it should be done in an official way''
That is a complete contradiction, firstly if you respected peoples' right to express their faith, then you would have no problem with that being expressed in an official way. Ireland is not made up of atheists, Oisin. It is made up of various different peoples.
The Government, education and institutions of the state should reflect the people. That is was democracy is about. A government of the people, by the people for the people. And yes, God forbid but that does mean people who believe in God as well!
What you are really saying is that you have no problem with faith as long as it is hidden and out of sight.
People have the right to express their faith openly just as you and others have the right not to partake. But give people the option to choose. Don't attempt to force one set of beliefs on top of another. They can live side by side.
The original point to my argument in the first piece was simple. A nativity play was cancelled because one person objected. Not only did this person not want to take part, which is their right. But this individual wanted it to be completely removed and denied others the right to celebrate the story of the nativity.
What I want to see is equality!
Michael Gray - Sloan
Pádraig Pearse Ógra Shinn Féin Cumann
South Down
Well essentially I'm not really dealing with the specific situation mentioned but the ethos of the article and the experience of non-christians in the education system.
Michael no offence but I wouldnt have expected to have to shove secularism down anyone throat on this blogspot, after all secularism is one of the basic tenets of irish republicanism.
I dont deny anybody the right to express their religion but as a republican I believe representatives of the state fullfilling a function of the state and paid by the state should respect all religions and adhere to none in their professional practice.
If you want chinese herbal remedies or voodoo to treat your tumour thats fine but the state provides what is the best and most broad ranging service it can which is suitable for the majority of people. the same goes for education, if you want your child to be a catholic teach them it yourself or pay for it.
I would like my future children to be educated in the basis of irish and classical republican thought, i'd like them to get an understanding of marxist thought and humanistic pschology but I know that wont be thought at any state school. Oh well I'll just have to teach myself...if I care that bloody much it wont be that much of a chore. My taxes are for healthcare, education, infrastructure etc. not for maintaining of already massive and wealthy organisations like the major churchs.
A state should respect all religions and adhere to none, the only way funding of religious schools isnt adherence is if you pay for schools for every religion in the state which would be ridiculously inefficient and expensive.
Oisin, at least you admit that you are not dealing with the original point I raised. Which was very simple and honest. As of yet you have failed to deal with the issue of equality. Instead, you spoke about everything else, which means that instead of having an honest and intelligent debate on the issue, I am left to respond to Voodoo.
Firstly, perhaps you misconstrued what I said in my previous statements, but I made no mention of the blog spot and secularism. That is untrue. The ÓSF blog spot has demonstrated clearly that it is impartial and that it allows all opinions be aired. The exact thing that I want in society! As well as that one of the basic tenets of Republican is also freedom of expression and religion.
Secondly you say that someone who has a religion should not adhere to their faith in their professional life? One word, equality.
Secondly, do you not bring your marxist and humanist principals everywhere you go, or do you simply shut them off when you feel it is inappropriate. Personally speaking, I am who am I, I am proud of that and like my Republicanism I will not hide it at home or in business or work.
Thirdly, I did not say that taxes should pay for any Church or religious institutions. What I said was clear, that all children irrespective of the school they attend are entitled to a free education. What I am promoting is choice and plurality, something that secularism claims to adhere too as well. With all due respect, but read my statements carefully.
Finally, speaking for myself, I was taught religion at home as was my brother and currently my four year old sister. For us and my parents it was not a chore. I particularly resent that implication.
Oisin with the greatest respect, but deal with my original point and that was do you agree, that a set of beliefs, the overwhelmingly majority in fact, should be oppressed and censored. Or like me, do you believe that common ground can be found and the diversity of Ireland can be celebrated.
The original issue was that children who wanted to take part in a Nativity play were denied that because one objected and insisted it was removed. That is not equality, and I want you to answer that specifically, was that right?
Michael Gray - Sloan
Pádraig Pearse Ógra Shinn Féin Cumann
South Down
Good article Michael, I completely agree with you, its PC gone mad, one person complains and everyone else suffers, wheres the justice in that, I want to know how many complaints were recieved about the Nativity being cancelled, i'd guess nearly everyone else involved yet it the decision still remains. Oisin, if you have no faith in God then why were you sent to a Catholic School, i don't find the school at fault after all it was a Catholic School, why didnt your parents remove you and put you in a different school.
Mary
"Oisin, if you have no faith in God then why were you sent to a Catholic School, i don't find the school at fault after all it was a Catholic School, why didnt your parents remove you and put you in a different school."
Michael already mentioned that there was no non-denominational school in his area.
It's all very well to say that Catholic schools should cater for Catholic pupils, but Catholic schools make up the vast majority of the Irish education system.
In an increasingly diverse society one of those factors might be sustainable but not both.
I would hope that Ógra Shinn Féin would be at the forefront of sticking up for the rights of religious and ethnic minorities.
Apart from anything else, it's surely a vital part of building Irish unity.
orry, I should have said Oisín where I referred to Michael
Well Mary given the fact that pretty much every school I had a choice of going to was a catholic school it wasnt really up to me, even my secondary school which was a vocational/ completely state school was effectively a catholic school.
I dont think its right that students shouldnt be allowed to put on a nativity play but I also think a scholl recieving funding from the state should not initiate something of a religious nature. the students who wanted to do it should have been allowed but not as an official school event.
Michael I was refering to the fact you claim I was shoving secularism down peoples throats when it is a republican blog page, republicanism being a secular ideology.
I also think you are making assumptions about my feelings on religion. For one thing if you ask anyone who know me they'll tell you I'm an awful liberal. I dont think i need to state my views again they are clear to see.
The state must not support or opposed any religion, because that is the only way it can equally treat them.
I'm a nurse, if I started to apply my personal political and social beliefs to my practice I would probably be fired and rightyly so. If a gard treats those "who live in sin", or some other thing which his/her religion believes to be wrong, like criminals they should be fired too. As many will know I believe many presently illegal drugs should be legalised I firmly believe this to be the right thing to do, if a gard shares my view should he turn a blind eye to drug dealing and use. I'm being slighly facitious but my point is a state professional has a very special responsibility.
Also I hate internet debating, I'm sure we'll discuss it over a pint soon enough anyway.
Oisin
Is there a Christmas tree in your house? Do you exchange gifts on Christmas morning? I would almost guarantee that you do! Dont you see the symbolism in these very acts?
Isnt this a bit hypocritical dont you think??
Would like an answer if you would.
It'd be nice to get into a discussion on what this one school had decided to do, but unfortunately Michael did not give us the name of the school or where it happened. All we have to go on is what Michael heard some people say on the Joe Duffy Show (oh, joy). We don't even know if the person who expressed discomfort at the idea of a nativity play had actually asked for it to be pulled, or if this was a decision the school itself made.
It's good to see Óisín's comments and to know that at least one person here has some sense. Secularism is a core component of republican ideology. And hoping we do someday achieved a socialist republic, a secular government would actually be obligated not to support any faith-based initiatives (separation of Church and State was a great idea the Americans had, pity they never stuck to it).
Still, the biggest joke here is that Jesus of Nazareth was not even born at Christmas. It was just a Pagan festival that the Roman Empire appropriated as a festival celebrating the birth of their saviour. So when you have neo-conservatives in the US like Bill O'Reilly go nuts over the "War on Christmas", you can have a laugh at the stupidity of it all.
Still, at the very least I'm glad I got to attend a gaelscoil and be spared most of that religious indoctrination at childhood.
I have to agree Oisín, I hate internet debating as well, does not have the same impact. But I will take your offer for a pint! no doubt we will have the opportunity at the national congress.
Ciarán, with all due respect, but the discussion on the Joe Duffy show would not state the play-school in question as the woman who started the conversation did not feel comfortable mentioning it. From what I gathered the debate surrounding the issue has caused a rift with in that school community, which is sad. I understand your concern over the vagueness, in fact I questioned whether or not to post anything on the blog over that issue.
What was stated was one person complained about the Nativity play and viewed it as offensive and wanted it to be with drawn.
Despite objections from every other parent, the play-school decided to cancel the play. Which in my opinion is not right. Surely an accommodation could of been made.
Secondly, If you read my previous statements carefully, you will notice that I agree with Oisin on a lot of points. I support fully separation of Church and State. I also support the right of religious freedom. All that am I asking, and to be honest I don't think it is a lot, is to allow people the right to celebrate Christmas and allow children who want to, perform nativity plays, to do so. I don't think that is unreasonable.
Lastly in response to comments surrounding the date of Christmas, with respect, but your analysis is not completely accurate. Yes you are correct that Christ was not born on the 25th of December, the reason that date was chosen by the Western Church (The Eastern Churches hold Christmas on January 6th) was to facilitate and aid with mass conversion.
It was not picked simply because there was a Pagan festival during the same period. It was chosen specifically to aid evangelisation. Whether you agree with the faith or not is irrelevant, but the decision in my opinion does make sense.
But once again that was not my original point.
My original point, was that children should have the right to take part in a Nativity play if they want. If others do not then that is perfectly fine.
But allow those us who do want celebrate the true meaning of Christmas to do so, without it being castigated as offensive.
I am asking for equality and I honestly don't think that is to much to ask.
Michael Gray - Sloan
Pádraig Pearse Ógra Shinn Féin Cumann
South Down
To anonymous...Yes we have a tree and we exchange presents on Christmas morning, whats your point?
Where is the religious significance in these acts and even if there was how would that make me a hypocrite anyway. I never called for the abolition of Christmas!
You really should think before you post.
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